Rebellion How I Lost Faith in the “Pro Life” Movement... & blindly embraced some cray cray thinking instead

Last week a pro-choice blogger called Libby Anne published a piece titled How I Lost Faith in the “Pro-Life” Movement, which has since gone on to become a bit of an Internet sensation (not that that’s a hard thing to do these days), especially amongst pro-choicers.

While this blog article may have gained notoriety and popularity, none of this changes that fact that it’s a factually challenged and illogical exposition from a former pro-lifer now intent on sharing her new found life of active rebellion against her former pro-life, religious, home-schooled (etc., etc.) upbringing.

After wading my way through Libby’s rather lengthy blog post (all 6341 words of it) I was tempted to move on without paying it any further attention, but because of the fact that it seems to be attracting views faster than a William Hung cover song, I thought a jolly good refutation was probably in order, so here goes…

“My journey began one blustery day in October of 2007 when I came upon an article in the New York Times. This article completely shook my perspective… the first thing I learned from that New York Times article shocked me: it turns out that banning abortion does not actually affect the abortion rate.”

The ludicrous claim that banning abortion does not reduce the abortion rate is one of the oldest canards in the pro-choice arsenal, and it is still also one of the most illogical claims they make.

Just consider the facts of what is being proposed here: that the legal status of abortion has no bearing on its occurrence in a population.

Really?

Cause if this is true, then what it means is that legalising abortion, in theory, should NOT lead to an increase in the number of abortions carried out in a country – remember, the claim here is that the legal status of abortion (whether it is legal or not) has no bearing on the actual abortion rate.

Why is it then that in our country (and many others where abortion is legal) the abortion rate steadily continued to rise, by the thousands each year, in the years since abortion became easily and legally available here?

Our crude abortion rate, general abortion ratio, and abortion ratio are all now approximately double what they were in 1980 – to suggest that the ease of availability that legalized abortion provides to society has played no role in these dramatic increases in our abortions rate is simply nonsensical.

This claim also looks rather spurious when you consider the case of Ireland, where abortion is ILLEGAL, and yet Ireland has a lower abortion rate than England, Wales or Scotland (and this is even after accounting for Irish women who travel to other countries to have abortions).

Or what about this study from the US which shows that: “several types of state-level anti-abortion legislation result in statistically significant declines in both the abortion rate and the abortion ratio. Furthermore, a series of natural experiments provide further evidence that abortion restrictions are correlated with reductions in the incidence of abortion”.

Then there is always the question of whether the studies which claim to show that there is no difference between the abortion rate in countries with liberal abortion laws, as opposed to those with more restrictive ones, are even methodologically sound.

The pro-life movement is well aware (or at least the pro-lifers I associate regularly with are) that bringing about an end to the grave injustice that is abortion – an act which kills thousands of innocent human beings every year in this country alone – is about more than just legislation, however to suggest that legislation is totally irrelevant in shaping moral decision-making amongst a population is simply totally counter to reality.

Human nature is human nature, and if abortion is easily available to people, then they are far more likely to avail themselves of that option – and let’s also not forget the way in which legislation plays a role in shaping public attitudes, and adds to the normalization of acts over time.

Most importantly of all, the incidence of a particular act amongst the general population tells us NOTHING about whether that act is ethically right/wrong, or whether it should be outlawed or not.

Plenty of people seem content to break the laws against adult homicide, or drink-driving, etc, but so what? This doesn’t mean that we are wrong to outlaw adult homicide or drink-driving, it just means we’ve got a lot of work to do in assisting certain members of our population to come to understand that these things are not ethically good things to do.

Even if our rates of adult homicide or drink-driving were to climb to record highs, no sane person would suggest that this should cause us to legalize either act, instead we would rightly scrutinize what can be better done to bring about more ethical behaviors (and less unethical ones) within the general population.

Imagine if the United Nations announced tomorrow that it had decided that, because of it’s continuing regularity in many parts of the world, genocide would no longer be considered an international criminal offense. I doubt that anyone would be rushing to praise them for their forward-thinking progressiveness – apart from a few murderous dictators, that is.

In fact, on a similar note, this seems like a good time to introduce the issue of slavery.

It is my understanding that there is actually far more slavery today than there has ever been before in human history – far more than what there was when Wilberforce won his important victory to have it banned, or when it was outlawed in the USA.

Yet I seriously doubt that any person of goodwill would suggest that this should cause us to legalize slavery again (in order to better regulate its practice and reduce the harm that illegal slavery can cause?), even though, quite clearly, outlawing slavery has done absolutely NOTHING to reduce the rate of slavery.

Reality and a sound grasp of ethics dictates that there are some acts that are just so ethically reprehensible that societies have an obligation to maintain the strictest prohibitions against them – and murdering innocent human beings (including via abortion) is quite clearly at the top of that list of acts.

“I found that almost 50,000 women worldwide die each year from unsafe abortions, and that many more experience serious injury or infertility. These deaths happen almost entirely in countries where abortion is illegal – and thus clandestine. In fact, when abortion was made legal in South Africa, the number of abortion related deaths fell by over 90%.”

What she has completely failed to mention (I wonder why) is the fact that the latest research actually shows that the countries with the most restrictive abortion laws also have the lowest maternal mortality rates.

But how can this possibly be the case if outlawing abortion is supposed to lead to greater rates of deaths from unsafe abortions (which are recorded in the maternal mortality statistics)?

Ireland, where abortion is illegal, has a maternal mortality rate of less than 1 death per 100,000 live births – that’s seventeen times lower than the United States, which has a maternal mortality rate of 17 deaths per 100,000 live births, and Ireland are not the only ones in this boat according to the World Economic Forum.

Then there’s this in-depth study from Chile (where abortion is outlawed) which showed that illegal abortion is NOT associated with increased maternal mortality.

All one needs to do is look at the official statistics from the USA prior to 1973 (Roe vs Wade) and you discover that the number of women dying from backstreet abortions was dropping dramatically, and well before 1970, which shows that changing the legal status of abortion was NOT the definitive factor involved (the theory is that increased availability of antibiotics, advances in medical treatment, etc, was the real reason for the decreasing death rate).

But of course none of these important points are convenient to the pro-choice PR spin which is built largely around scaremongering about the dire results of outlawing abortion.

And once again, even if these statistics proved to be true, they don’t tell us anything about whether abortion is ethically right or wrong.

If you think about it, what is actually being proposed here is the totally heinous notion that the law should be changed, and abortion legalized and medicalized, so that one group of human beings are able to deny fundamental rights to another group of human beings by having them terminated without posing any risk to themselves in the process.

And if we’re going to start talking about the harm that backstreet abortion can pose to women, aren’t we forgetting the fatal harm that every legal abortion does to a female in the womb (or is this just one of those all-too-convenient ‘that’s-just-too bad for them’ aspects of the pro-choice ideology?)

“But if banning abortion does not decrease abortion rates, what does? Why do some countries have low abortion rates while others have much higher rates? The answer, I found, was simple… I found that making birth control widespread and easily accessible is actually the most effective way to decrease the abortion rate. Even as I processed this fact, I knew that the pro-life movement as a whole generally opposes things like comprehensive sex education and making birth control available to teenagers.”

First of all, there is serious reasons to doubt the validity of the claim that increased promotion and availability of contraception is actually an effective tool in the fight against abortion.

In NZ, approximately 50% of abortions that take place each year happen AFTER a contraceptive failure leading to pregnancy (not because of a lack of contraceptives), and there is no evidence that the remaining abortions happen because women are getting pregnant due to a lack of access to contraception.

Such contraceptive failures are an inevitable reality of life in the real world (baring the use of long term chemical contraceptives, but more on that in a moment), where there is no such thing as perfect contraceptive use. It’s a grand design, but at the end of the day, and for all sorts of reasons, ranging from method failure, to user error, to user risk-taking (usually in the heat of passion), it can never be realized and people still get pregnant despite using contraception.

When this happens, large numbers of these people resort to abortion (because it’s readily available) as their ultimate back up to their front line defense against pregnancy, which has just failed them.

And why wouldn’t they, if they’ve already been conditioned to view sex as little more than a plaything to which babies are a massive inconvenience?

The problem here is not one of technology (i.e. a lack of devices that stop pregnancy), the issue here is one of our cultural attitudes towards sexuality and human life – and that’s a much bigger and far more complex matter that will not be resolved by simply throwing more technology (contraception) at the issue.

Just consider the recent statistics from France which showed that although more women are now using the Pill, and there have been less unplanned pregnancies as a result, the number of abortions in such cases has actually risen (they now have less unplanned pregnancies as a result of increased contraceptive use, but more of those unplanned pregnancies are ending in abortion, which has not reduced their abortion rate).

The simple fact is that when a culture views human life as being dispensable, then, with or without contraception, this attitude will be the deciding factor if couples find themselves pregnant (coupled of course with the easy availability of abortion, and the many pressures that women in unplanned pregnancy have bearing down on them).

Let’s not forget, there are also the health risks associated with chemical contraceptive use, and while this is not the time or place to explore these in great detail, it is important that we don’t just gloss over these in the rush to medicalize women against pregnancy (as Libby seems to want to do). This would be a move which also has other social implications for women too, like, for example, the fact that the Pill makes women sexually available to men 24/7, an outcome that feminist commentators have been raising serious questions about for some years.

As you can probably see by now, suggesting that increased contraceptive use is the magic silver bullet answer to decreasing abortion rates (as Libby does) is a very simplistic response that actually creates a whole slew of other issues in its wake.

More importantly, in relation to Libby’s claims, however, is the fact that the question of implementing a contraceptive-based strategy is actually a separate issue to the ethical question of abortion (is it ethically right to destroy human life in the womb?)

I know many pro-lifers who are staunchly opposed to abortion, but at the same time favor a contraceptive based solution to this issue, so I’m really unsure why Libby believes that the question of which approach to take in response to abortion should somehow have any bearing on whether the pro-life movement is right about the crucial issue; the ethical question regarding abortion.

In fact, it’s a logical fallacy to suggest that because you disagree with the stance of a large percentage of the pro-life movement regarding one of the proposed solutions to abortion, that this somehow invalidates the movement, or their central ethical claim, that abortion is a grave evil that kills innocent human beings.

It’s another one of those classic pro-choice red herrings that is used to try and distract attention away from the real issue here; why the heck are we killing unborn human beings and calling that freedom?

Let me put it another way, if the majority of the anti-whaling lobby felt that the best way to reduce the number of whale killings was to do nothing more than send out poorly worded fliers with a terrible layout and bad font selection, would that make their core claim about the ethics of whaling wrong? Would it invalidate the entire existence of the anti-whaling movement?

Of course it wouldn’t, because what you are talking about here is a secondary issue (of strategy), not the central one of whether the movement’s core ethical claims (and thus its very reason for existing) are actually valid or not.

“I realized that the real way to reduce abortion rates, then, was to reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies. And the way to do that is with birth control, which reduces the number of unwanted pregnancies by allowing women to control when and if they become pregnant.”

It seems to me that this is one of the key flaws in Libby’s arguments, because what she is trying to suggest is that if you simply find a way to stop pregnancies, then there will be less abortions.

However I would suggest that in actual fact, the important point here is the issue of these pregnancies being “wanted”, or not – that’s not a matter of whether someone gets pregnant or not, but whether they have a respect for human life that is absolute, and that they adhere to, even when a pregnancy is not planned, or it requires sacrifice on the part of the mother (as they all do).

The key point is that increased contraception doesn’t lead to an increase in respect for human life, and human rights in the womb, and therefore, at best, it is little more than a band aid over a gaping wound (by the way, the wound here is NOT the existence of the babies, but our cultural beliefs and treatment of those babies – get it?)

There are also some serious factual flaws in her argument.

For example, an Alan Guttmacher Institute survey, of more than 10,000 women who had procured abortions in 2000 and 2001 in the USA, found that only 12 percent of these women stated that problems obtaining contraception was the reason for their pregnancies.

This result was backed up by a second Centers for Disease Control and Prevention study of teenage mothers in the USA which similarly found that only 13 percent of the teens reported having had trouble getting contraception.

Or there is the important research that was recently pointed out by Ross Douthat in his New York Times column (emphasis added):

“Another Guttmacher Institute study suggests that liberal states don’t necessarily do better than conservative ones at preventing teenagers from getting pregnant in the first place. Instead, the lower teenage birth rates in many blue states are mostly just a consequence of (again) their higher abortion rates. Liberal California, for instance, has a higher teen pregnancy rate than socially conservative Alabama; the Californian teenage birth rate is only lower because the Californian abortion rate is more than twice as high

Once again, I think it’s fair to say that Libby’s supposed bullet-proof solution to the problem of abortion (more contraception) isn’t actually as foolproof as she would to think, or claim that it is.

“I realized that the only world in which opposing birth control made any sense was one in which the goal was to control women’s sex lives.”

This sort of rhetoric (and the rest of the paragraph that follows it) is a logical fallacy that doesn’t actually represent the pro-life ethical position, or the real position of those pro-lifers who aren’t in favor of promoting contraception (many of whom are women, by the way) – it seems to be little more than another personal grievance that stems from her feelings about her own personal upbringing.

“I could no longer call myself pro-life, because I could no longer support the policies advocated by the pro-life movement and the major pro-life organizations. I no longer wanted to see Roe overturned or abortion banned. Instead, I wanted to work towards a world in which everyone has access to affordable birth control and unplanned pregnancies are reduced to a bare minimum. That day I became pro-choice.”

If that’s all that it took for Libby to switch her views on abortion, then I would humbly suggest that:

a. She never actually properly understood, or properly reasoned her way to the pro-life ethic in the first place

And:

b. she made her decision to abandon the pro-life movement without getting all of the facts. According to her own account posted on this blog, all she did was read a couple of articles without ever bothering to verify the validity of the claims being made by these articles (at least she gives no indication in her blog post that she did this).

“I no longer believe that abortion is murder because I no longer hold that a zygote, embryo, or fetus is a “person.” I also came to realize that the focus on personhood ignores the fact that a zygote, embryo, or fetus is growing inside of another person’s body. For a variety of reasons, I see birth as the key dividing line”

BOOM! And there it is, one of the definitive statements in this post which definitely shows me that Libby never really understood the pro-life ethic properly, and as a result has now embraced some very illogical approaches to this issues.

How does growing inside another person’s body change the fact of whether a fetus is a person or not?

Put simply; it doesn’t.

And how the heck does birth change anything, other than the location, of the child growing in the womb?

Birth is a point of transition, and this has no bearing on whether you are a person or not.

(For the sake of brevity I won’t elaborate any further on the (very) logically robust pro-life refutations of these two points)

“I believed that the pro-life movement’s opposition to birth control stemmed not from a desire to control women’s sex lives but rather from the belief that the pill was an “abortifacient.”

There’s no doubting that some people are opposed to the Pill based on its potential to act as an abortifacient, but others are opposed to it for completely different reasons that have nothing to do with whether it is an abortifacient or not (some are opposed because of the way the pill changes male attitudes to women and sex, etc, some are opposed because they believe that sexual intercourse is meant to be unhindered by artificial barriers, others oppose it because they don’t like the health risks and prefer natural methods – and others still oppose it based on a mix of all these reasons).

But no pro-lifer that I am aware of opposes the pill because they have a desire to “control women’s sex lives” – such a sentiment is a cheap straw man that doesn’t exist in the real world (or, if it does, it is so rare that it is practically unheard of).

As you can see, Libby has already started from a position of a false dichotomy (the idea that it’s only one of two options, in this case it’s either because its abortifacient, or because of a desire to control women’s sex lives), and what’s worse, one of the options she is proposing isn’t even real (the desire to control women’s sex lives).

“This meant that the pro-life movement could oppose abortion as murder and yet also oppose birth control without actually being inconsistent.”

Once again, more logical fallacies – another false dichotomy, because even if the pill isn’t an abortifacient, it still wouldn’t be inconsistent to oppose it – someone could oppose it on other totally unrelated grounds, while still being consistent in their pro-life principles.

“I also found that the pro-life movement is not afraid of twisting the evidence when it comes to things like the supposed harmful side effects of abortion, such as depression and breast cancer. Cooking up “scientific facts” in an effort to scare women out of having abortions rather than working to encourage birth control use in an effort to reduce the number of unintended pregnancies seemed extremely backwards, and I became increasingly troubled by the way the pro-life movement treated science and their constant willingness to play fast and lose with the facts.”

I had to laugh when I read that statement, especially after Libby decided to include a link to an article that boldly trumpets that “Having an abortion doesn’t lead to depression” – is that right? Well try and tell that to all the women who have suffered damaging psychological side-effects from abortion, like the 250 women whose stories make up this book.

Such vile dishonesty simply re-victimizes the sufferers of post-abortion trauma by telling them the lie that their hurt is nothing more than a figment of their imagination, a fantasy or a delusion of their own making (gotta love the way certain ‘feminists’ treat their fellow sisters).

“The Biggest Killer: A Woman’s Own Body”

This whole section of her blog post is a woeful litany of terrible mathematics, bad science, logical fallacies and a complete failure to understand human ethics.

Firstly, the other blog post she quotes in this section (from someone called Sarah) fails to use proper mathematical calculations, and it misses several key scientific facts. Sarah’s little insert ends with a rather odd, and totally unproven assertion, that if you really believe that zygotes are human beings then “you actually kill more babies by refusing to take birth control”.

Oh yeah, says who? Sarah’s shonky mathematics and woeful understanding of fertility and human ethics, etc?

Firstly, the chances of getting pregnant each month are NOT 30%, they are 15% – 25% (1 in 5, or 20% seems to be the common answer given by doctors).

But this is merely a statistical average based on a calculation, it is not a constant that applies to every couple, and there are many different factors that have a bearing on fertility, ranging from weight, to age, to stress, to fertility functioning – and the various factors apply to both the male and the female (not just the female, as suggested in the blog post).

The other really important point about Sarah’s scientific analysis of the situation is that she completely fails to mention that the percentages regarding spontaneous abortion that she refers to are disputable. The fertilization process does not always result in the conception of a human being, sometimes it results in things such as hydatidiform moles, blighted ovums, etc.

The key point here is that it is almost certain that it is many of these types of entities which are lost in very early spontaneous abortions, as opposed to healthy human beings (the pro-life position is NOT that every meeting of a sperm and an egg is necessarily a conception of a new human being, by the way).

More importantly, from an ethical perspective, is that both Sarah and Libby (who goes on to add her own new and completely different figures for natural spontaneous abortion loss) are confusing an act of homicide with natural death.

Spontaneous abortion is a case of natural death (i.e. caused by mother nature), abortion, on the other hand, is an act of homicide (the deliberate killing of an innocent human being).

And here’s the important bit – while it is ethically wrong to deliberately kill an innocent human being, it is NOT ethically wrong to allow mother nature to run her course and allow a human being to die naturally (assuming that we are talking about a spontaneous abortion that has occurred after the meeting of a sperm and an egg that has actually resulted in the conception of a human being, and not something else).

Think of it like this – anti-whaling groups are NOT being inconsistent if they try and blockade whaling ships in order to prevent them from harpooning whales, but at the same time do nothing to save whales dying of natural causes elsewhere in the ocean.

There are two different ethical questions/acts involved here, NOT one, as Libby WRONGLY assumes there to be.

“Pro-life doctors often refuse to prescribe the pill, and pro-life pharmacists refuse to fill prescriptions for it. This makes utterly no sense unless the point is not “saving unborn babies” but rather making sure that women who dare to have sex have to face the “consequences,” i.e. pregnancy and children.”

Yet more illogical false dichotomy and straw man arguments.

The doctors I know who refuse to prescribe the Pill, don’t do so because they want women to be punished for having sex (where the heck is she even getting this whacky notion from? Oh yeah, probably some fellow ideologue is telling her that this is how anyone who disagrees with contraceptive use, etc, views the world, and she’s just swallowing such garbage hook, line and sinker), instead they refuse to prescribe it based on health reasons – they believe that chemical contraception poses risks to female health and fertility, and they don’t wish to expose their patients to such risks.

Whether you agree or disagree with these doctors is irrelevant, the fact is that they are NOT doing this to punish women, and they are in fact making an ethical decision based upon the evidence in their possession as medical experts.

“As I thought through all of the implications of Sarah’s article, the benefit of the doubt that I had been giving the pro-life movement began to falter. How could they justify opposing the pill when putting sexually active women on the pill would actually save the lives of unborn babies?”

First of all, Libby has NOT at all established the validity of her claim that putting women on the pill would save more human lives.

I have already pointed out above the disputable nature of the natural spontaneous abortion claims, and then there is also the fact that chemical contraceptives are one of the known risk factors for increasing the chance of ectopic pregnancy (where the embryo implants and grows outside the womb, a situation which can kill both mother and unborn child if left untreated).

Most importantly of all, Libby doesn’t seem to have considered the fact that the Pill doesn’t actually save the life of any unborn children.

Even if we assume that Libby’s claims about natural spontaneous abortion are correct, and that we are actually talking about the natural deaths of unborn human beings, then getting women to take the Pill WOULD STILL NOT save one single life.

Instead what the Pill would do (assuming that it worked perfectly and prevented all possible conceptions, which NEVER happens in the real world, by the way) is PREVENT new human life from coming into existence, but that is NOT the same thing as saving a human life – to save a human life, that life actually first has to exist (which wouldn’t happen if the Pill worked seamlessly every time).

This is why it is completely flawed of Libby to imply that pro-lifers are somehow failing to attempt to save lives (therefore being inconsistent) if they refuse to endorse the Pill.

Just stop and think about the totally ludicrous nature of what her position actually entails for a moment – what she is suggesting here is that if pro-lifers refuse to endorse an action that could prevent a natural death by preventing that person from ever existing in the first place, then they are somehow being inconsistent.

But why should this reasoning apply only to unborn human beings and not ALL human beings?

After all, the pro-life movement isn’t just concerned with unborn human life, but with a respect for the dignity of all human beings from conception to natural death.

But then, according to her reasoning, in order to be consistent about saving human lives, wouldn’t pro-lifers actually have to support the sterilization of ALL humans, as this would be the only way to stop any more human beings from being conceived and then going on to die natural deaths at some point in their existence, either before or after birth?

Remember, she’s the one suggesting that pro-lifers should be held to account for natural deaths, and she’s the one claiming that preventing the existence of a new human being is a life-saving act, and that the pro-life movement is being inconsistent if they refuse to endorse the prevention of new human beings via contraception.

We’re not done yet folks, hold on to your tinfoil hats, cause things are about to get even more ridiculous up in this mother…

“A few months after reading Sarah’s article I came upon one by Fred Clark. In it, he argues that if those who oppose abortion really believe that every fertilized egg is a person we ought to see 5K fundraisers to save these zygotes. This is very much like what I said above, except that the focus here is whether the 50% of all zygotes – 50% of all fertilized eggs – that die before pregnancy even begins could be saved. Fred suggests that if the pro-life movement really is about saving unborn babies, and if those in the pro-life movement really do believe that life begins at fertilization, then pro-lifers really ought to be extremely concerned about finding a way to save all of these lives. But they’re not.”

Probably the most appropriate response to this part of the blog post would be: ROTFLMAO, however, let me proceed with a more measured and wordy response instead.

Once again, Libby (and Fred ‘Dagg’ Clark) have completely failed to understand the difference between natural death and homicide, and as a result they are trying to hold pro-lifers accountable for not doing anything about natural deaths.

Like I said earlier, this is about as logical as suggesting that anti-whaling campaigners who protest Japanese whaling, but refuse to try and prevent whales from dying natural deaths are somehow being ethically inconsistent or hypocritical.

I wonder if Fred and Libby (celebrity couple name: ‘Fib’) are just as consistent in their reasoning when it comes to someone like Oskar Schindler, who, according to their logic, was quite clearly a moral hypocrite for saving all those Jewish lives from the murderous Nazis while never doing anything to try and prevent all the cancers that killed Jews during WW2. Surely if he really truly cared about Jews he would have also done something to stop cancer, which also kills Jews, right?

Are these people serious?

What are they actually expecting here? That, in order to be ethically consistent, pro-lifers should be calling for natural death to be outlawed? Or for the impeachment and criminal prosecution of mother nature for all of her barbaric genocide of unborn human beings? Or perhaps they would prefer it if we protested outside the WHO’s headquarters for their failure to prevent natural deaths from occurring?

And, as mentioned earlier, why should this sort of cray cray thinking stop with natural deaths in the womb, shouldn’t it also extend to ALL human beings, and be demanding that, in order for pro-lifers to be consistent, they would need to start protesting, and acting to bring about an end to ALL forms of human death?

The fact that these people don’t seem to understand why pro-lifers wouldn’t ever make protest signs that read “stop natural death!”, or: “mother nature stops a beating heart”, and why not doing this would NOT be an act of hypocrisy or inconsistency, probably tells you a lot about where their heads are at.

I did warn you that this was real tinfoil hat type stuff.

(I realise that I am starting to become more sardonic with each passing sentence of this blog. I really don’t mean any harm, it’s just that such logically flawed notions deserve to be ridiculed in the extreme for the falsity of their content.)

I wonder if Fred and Libby have actually fully thought through the full ramifications of the reasoning they are espousing here? Probably not, because otherwise they would realize that it would mean that, if we take the African continent as just one example, anyone who worked in that region to bring about positive change, but who didn’t try to overcome EVERY single problem hurting the African people (from HIV, to poverty, to disease, to starvation, to corruption, to war, to lack of proper healthcare, to child soldiers, to economic strife, to education, etc.) would quite clearly be an inconsistent hypocrite who didn’t really practice what they preach.

DOUBLE FACEPALM!

“Barack Obama, Pro-Life Hero?”

In this section, Libby turns her blog post into a political advertisement for the Obama campaign, trying to convince us that Obama is actually the most pro-life president in US history (cue comedic drum and cymbal hit), and that Obamacare is going to reduce abortions by 75% (cue hysterical laughing that never ends until people die from their laughing) and anyone who opposes it is actually a murderous hypocrite.

Never mind that whole religious freedom objection, or the fact that widespread contraceptive availability has NEVER reduced a population’s abortion rate by anywhere even remotely close to 75% – just think about what Libby is trying to claim here, she’s trying to suggest that 75 out of every 100 abortions currently taking place in the US would cease to happen under Obamacare (this would literally be the policy equivalent to walking on water if it actually were true).

Why bother with facts when you can just repeat Obama talking points while failing to mention that Obama is strongly endorsed by Planned Parenthood (America’s largest provider of for-profit abortions), or that they have been involved in policy making under his tenure, or that they are receiving funding from Obama. And no need to mention Obama’s reversal of the Mexico City Policy, meaning that American money is being used to fund abortion in foreign countries.

Sure, this guy’s a real pro-life hero, just like Lance Armstrong was the best non-drug using athlete to ever make it big in the world of cycling (why stop at ‘hero’ as a descriptor for Obama though, when the promises that Libby makes about Obamacare actually suggest that he is in fact a veritable messiah).

Seriously, this sort of unthinking and sycophantic worship might go down great at a pro-Obama soiree, but in the real world it just doesn’t hold up to proper scrutiny, once again showing me that Libby hasn’t so much reasoned her way out of the pro-life movement as she has become blindly infatuated with an opposing ideology.

“Making It Harder to Afford Children”

This next section of the blog post is yet more political policy advertising that is flawed in the following ways:

a. is grossly unfair to the pro-life movement and the individual pro-lifers who make it up

The pro-life movement doesn’t just exist in America, or in Tea Party circles. It is in fact made up of a myriad of views about financial polices, not just the anti-welfare ones, which Libby wrongly implies are official pro-life movement fiscal policies.

b. it wrongly assumes that there is only ONE way (state welfare) to support people in need

Financial policies are actually hugely complex matters, as anyone who has ever worked in these areas can attest to, and it is overly simplistic to suggest that any one policy (i.e. more state welfare) is the complete, or only possible way of resolving poverty in a given population.

c. it wrongly assumes that people who don’t support state welfare type polices don’t want to address the issue, or that they want to see people living in poverty

These same pro-lifers who Libby accuses of being heartless poor-people haters, are in fact usually the very same people who give hundreds of volunteer hours per year, or make regular generous contributions to crisis-pregnancy centres that offer women in unplanned pregnancies free alternatives and support in order to help them avoid abortions.

It is childish and overly simplistic to accuse them, and the entire pro-life movement of not wanting to support pregnant women just because they don’t favor your preferred fiscal policy ideas (ideas which are actually shared by a lot of pro-lifers, by the way).

And I’m not sure if she’s noticed or not, but that article she cites as an example of “conservatives [who] are actively working to make it harder for poor women to afford to carry unintended pregnancies to term” actually states that one of the six politicians promoting the bill it mentions is a Democrat. (I suspect at this point she was just in too much of a hurry to try and crucify the pro-life movement for sins that it isn’t actually guilty of that she just stopped bothering to check the validity of the claims she was making).

d. it confuses the validity of the pro-life ethic/movement with financial policy ideas that some pro-lifers hold

The financial policies that pro-lifers (even if ALL pro-lifers happen to hold such policies) do not have any bearing on whether the pro-life ethic is true or not, or whether the existence of the pro-life movement is a valid thing or not.

Once again, Libby is confusing unrelated issues and trying to use them as an excuse to justify her new found ideological opposition to the pro-life ethic.

I can’t help but suspect that this particular section of the blog post is one of those very clear examples of Libby raging and rebelling against the things that she now perceives as major deficiencies in her own personal upbringing. Just consider statements like this one (emphasis added):

“I knew this back in 2007, because I grew up in one of those families. I grew up believing that welfare should be abolished, that Head Start needed to be eliminated, that medicaid just enabled people to be lazy. I grew up in a family that wanted to abolish some of the very programs with the potential to decrease the number of abortions… I’m remembering rumblings underneath the polished surface of the things I was taught. This idea that women shouldn’t “spread their legs” if they’re not ready to raise the results of their promiscuity, that the government shouldn’t be expected to pick up the tab for some slut’s inability to say no. As a teen and a young adult, I never thought about how inconsistent these ideas were with the “saving unborn babies” pro-life rhetoric I so strongly believed in.”


There’s no denying that there’s a lot of personal baggage quite nakedly on display in the sentiments that she expresses here, and it’s easy to see how this baggage is actually a big part of the conclusions she is now making about the pro-life movement.

The comment about “women shouldn’t “spread their legs” if they’re not ready to raise the results of their promiscuity, that the government shouldn’t be expected to pick up the tab for some slut’s inability to say no” reminds me of my own former follies, when I once wrongly thought that the state was there to finance my carelessness, or to fix every problem in my life, rather than to empower me to stand on my own two feet and start making more prudent lifestyle decisions.

And therein lies the biggest flaw in Libby’s blog post, it’s little more than a poorly thought out and logically deficient declaration of rebellion – all in the service of her new ideological infatuation, an infatuation which leads her to loudly abandon and blame her past choices, her upbringing, and the pro-life movement as a whole, for all of the wrongs she now perceives to be part of her former life.

Just consider her final ‘altar call’, which fervently, and with a religious zeal calls on pro-lifers to come out of the darkness, to come forward and kneel before the pro-choice altar, where they can be cleansed and initiated into her newly found ideology of abortion-choice as well:

“But I am very sure that there are other dupes out there. If you’re sitting there reading this thinking “but I really am in it to save unborn babies,” I am sure you’re not alone. After all, I was one of you.

If you are one who has been a part of the pro-life movement because you really do believe in “saving unborn babies,” it’s time to cut your ties with the movement. You may be an honest and kind-hearted person, but you’ve been had. You’ve been taken in. It’s time to let go. It’s time to support Obamacare’s birth control mandate, it’s time to call off opposition to birth control, and it’s time to get behind progressive programs that help provide for poor women and their children. It’s time to make your actions consistent with your motives. While I am myself no longer morally opposed to abortion, I and others like me share your desire to decrease the number of unplanned pregnancies and to ensure that every woman can afford the option of keeping her pregnancy.

We’d love to have you join us.”

Sadly, this blog post is little more than a testament to the fact that Libby never actually properly understood the pro-life ethic in the first place. It serves as a warning that we, the pro-life movement, need to ensure that our members have actually properly reasoned their way to the pro-life commitments they profess, rather than just merely going along with the rest of pro-life crowd, because their parents told them to do so, without ever being adequately formed in the profoundly important and logically sound ethical truths that we proclaim.

  • Rowena

    thanks Radical Feminist for this – it covers Libby Anne’s article really well, considering the latter was one gigantic logical mess!

  • Juli

    Hi

    I found both your and Libby Anne’s article very interesting. However, I do not fully agree with either one of you.

    That set aside my main comment on your article is the way you choose to express yourself. When I started reading your article I was hoping that it would be written as a well rounded response. And while you have achieved this in some parts, I was disappointed at your general tone. Inserts such as’cue hysterical laughing that never ends until people die from their laughing’ make you sound incredible and quite frankly rude.

    Libby Anne’s article stated her genuine experience with the pro-life movement. Your article stated that you thought she was a silly little brat, who is just trying to rebel against her upbringing.

    Overall, if you had kept your article on a more neutral and polite level, it would have been much more enjoyable. Thank you for giving your evidence, it did include some things that I had not heard before.

    Regards
    Juli

    • Radical Feminist

      Hi Juli,

      I do realize that my sardonic tone is not to everyone’s taste, but that’s just the style I often employ (in fact, traditionally speaking it was actually a very common tone of rebuttals of this nature between ideologically opposed persons).

      Like Is said in my post, I definitely don’t mean any harm by it.

      I find that using sarcasim and satire is far better than getting angry when confronted by ideas that one strongly disagrees with – especially if there is great folly in them.

      Thanks for reading my reply to Libby Anne though!

      • http://profile.yahoo.com/7MS34BR4QT4KMWLYPD3KUR5QVA Sev

        The sardonic / sarcastic tone are an essential quality of the article, they are not a different option from “getting angry”, they are a manifestation of “anger”.
        Anger at what? At a point of view that disagrees with you.
        Why would you get angry when you hear a point of view of that disagrees with yours?
        (This would be a question not just for “radical feminist” but also for the ones who disagree with her.)

  • Bindi

    “cray cray” my word of the week

  • http://www.facebook.com/lisa.toomey.7 Lisa Toomey

    I’m a member of the choir you’re preaching to, so naturally, I loved this post. With your permission, I’ll be referencing it when engaging in debate where false and misleading arguments are used to justify abortion. (In other words, all the time!) Frankly “Libby Anne” seems either too naive to hold firm to her beliefs, so she blows like a leaf in the wind agreeing with whatever the most popular person in the room is saying, or she is a fictional caricature of what the pro-choice movement would like to have happen when a poor deluded pro life activist finally sees the light.

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  • Sara

    This post fails so drastically right from the very start. You…do realize that women have been aborting fetuses long before Roe v. Wade, right? I don’t understand why “pro-lifers” think that banning it is the go-to solution. There are cases of women obtain abortions that date back thousands of years. If this whole thing really is about saving lives then why would you want to go back to a world where women are forced to self-induce abortions or have unlicensed professionals do it for them, not only killing the fetuses put putting their own lives at risk as well? What is so pro-life about that? You are delusional if you think that if you get rid of legal abortion that you will stop it. The key really is to educate people, help them to make smarter choices and to expand the social safety net, as Libbey Anne said. We live in an imperfect world but you don’t make things perfect by banning things. That’s lazy.

    • Kylie

      Did you read the above article Sara, before you descended in such hysterical twaddle?

      To quote the author:

      “The pro-life movement is well aware … that bringing about an end to the grave injustice that is abortion … is about more than just legislation… ”

      That’s a far cry from your “banning abortion is a go-to solution”, or “illegalising abortion will get rid of it”.

      Please read before engaging in a debate.

      • Sara

        But the pro-life movement ISN’T about that. You can claim that it is, but all evidence points to the contrary. A large contingent of it is hellbent on banning abortion and contraceptives, instead deciding that telling people that they shouldn’t have sex until marriage is the surefire way to avoid unwanted pregnancies (which, by the way, it isn’t.). The comment section of Libby Anne’s post was FILLED with pro-lifers who proved her conclusions to be correct. They only care about policing sex, not saving babies.

        • http://www.facebook.com/johnpaul.borberg JohnPaul Borberg

          I’m sorry people who aren’t Prolife NZ and their associates do things that you think don’t help the prolife cause. The Prolife NZ supporters here claim they don’t don’t believe those things you say they shouldn’t believe. What exactly do you want them to do about those people who aren’t them that you seem to have such a problem with?

          • Sara

            You could stop make excuses for them? You could stop pretending they don’t exist and that the pro-life movement can’t ever be criticized? Perhaps? Libby Anne’s post was filled with vaild criticism of the pro-life movement, especially the pro-life movement in America where she lives, and you’re all acting like it’s not.

          • http://www.facebook.com/johnpaul.borberg JohnPaul Borberg

            Some of Libby Anne’s criticism is applicable to some aspects of the prolife movement, some of which is in America. However, she writes as if her criticism applied to the prolife movement in general, not at the specific part of it where it’s true. Prolife NZ consider themselves part of the prolife movement and if the criticism doesn’t apply to them they are justified in pointing out the inaccuracy of Libby Anne’s sweeping generalizations.

            Libby Anne also surrounds her just criticisms with some fairly disputable arguments and facts which anyone is justified in addressing.

            I’m happy to admit the prolife movement is far from above reproach (I don’t like to tone of this article, for instance). Maybe you could admit Lilly Anne’s article is also open to criticism.

          • Sara

            Libby Anne clearly states that a lot of the problem comes from the leaders and major organizations of the pro-life movement in America. She makes it clear that she realizes there are pro-lifers out there who are more realistic and recognize what really needs to be done. If you’re going to accuse her of things, at least make sure you read thoroughly.

          • http://www.facebook.com/johnpaul.borberg JohnPaul Borberg

            Where does Libby Anne ‘clearly state’ that ‘a lot of the problem comes from the leaders and major organizations of the pro-life movement in America’? I don’t recall her isolating her criticism to America anywhere in the article.

            And she seems to think that while there might be some ‘pro-lifers’ who ‘are more realistic and recognize what really needs to be done’ (i.e. agree with her, and you), she presents the vast majority of the the prolife movement as the subject of her criticism. That’s what these Prolife NZ types seem to object to.

          • Sara

            I would also recommend reading the several follow-up posts that Libby Anne wrote addressing and clearing up things that maybe weren’t entirely clear in the original post.

          • http://www.facebook.com/johnpaul.borberg JohnPaul Borberg

            You would ALSO recommend…? In addition to what? Your reply doesn’t follow my post.

          • Sara

            I would also recommend that you re-read the original post because you clearly didn’t read it closely enough the first time. And I suggest you read her follow up posts for further clarification. This is not rocket science.

          • http://www.facebook.com/johnpaul.borberg JohnPaul Borberg

            It’s not rocket science but it’s really, REALLY bloody long, and I’ve better things to do than trawl the rantings of someone who misses the mark more often then they hit it.

          • Sara

            She didn’t miss the mark, you just got it wrong. This is on you for not thoroughly reading because she made it clear, more than once even, that she was talking about the LEADERS OF THE PRO-LIFE MOVEMENT IN AMERICA. If you can’t be bothered to read it all fine, but don’t accuse her of things she didn’t do or say.

          • http://www.facebook.com/johnpaul.borberg JohnPaul Borberg

            Yeah, she missed that mark. Often. That’s what the post we’re commenting under is all about.

            She accused ‘prolife leaders’ in general of being charlatans and attacked ideas and motives shared by many in the movement. If you think she was only sniping at some prolife leaders in the US maybe YOU should go re-read the article.

            Considering your propensity to fail to understand the meaning of the comment about slavery and the irrelevance of your ‘I’d also recommend…’ comment above, your haste to accuse me of misunderstanding is a little over confident.

          • Sara

            She did not miss the mark. I just re-read her entire post and she states twice that she’s talking about the leaders of the movement. And since she lives in America I think we can deduct that she’s taking about America. She also states this again the follow up post to the original post. Again, if you can’t be bothered to read it then don’t accuse her of things.

          • http://www.facebook.com/johnpaul.borberg JohnPaul Borberg

            Really. She seemed to spend a lot of time attacking ideas. Maybe you skimmed over those bits.

          • Sara

            Attacking ideas? What does that mean?

          • http://www.facebook.com/johnpaul.borberg JohnPaul Borberg

            From thefreedictionary.com

            Attack: verb. 1. To set upon with violent force. 2. To criticize strongly or in a hostile manner. 3. To start work on with purpose and vigor: attack a problem. 4. To begin to affect harmfully: a disease that attacks the central nervous system.

            Idea:1. Something, such as a thought or conception, that potentially or actually exists in the mind as a product of mental activity. 2. An opinion, conviction, or principle: has some strange political ideas. 3. A plan, scheme, or method. 4. The gist of a specific situation; significance: The idea is to finish the project under budget. 5. A notion; a fancy.

            Specifically definition 2 of ‘attack’ and definition 2 of ‘idea’.

            See, that’s much better than saying “I would also recommend reading a dictionary…”

            I’m going to stop now. Asking what it means to attack and idea is about as much stupid as I can face without lapsing into outright ridicule.

            Good luck with your life.

          • Sara

            Yeah, thanks. But I wanted to know what ideas she specifically attacked in her post. I didn’t see her attacking anyone, I saw her relaying her lived experience within the pro-life evangelical movement in America.

          • Sara

            Again, I’m going to restate this, I wasn’t asking for definition of the word “attack.” I was meaning that I wanted specific examples of her “attacking ideas” as you say, in her post. She didn’t attack anyone. Again, let me say, I know what attack means but I just wanted to know how you got the idea that she was attacking anyone. Okay? Okay.

          • http://www.facebook.com/johnpaul.borberg JohnPaul Borberg

            Oh god, I can’t resist: An idea is only a ‘someone’ if you have imaginary friends.

            And you claimed I didn’t understand what I read.

          • Sara

            Well, guess what? You still haven’t explained to me what or who she attacked. Cut the condescension and give me a real answer because all I see is a woman explaining her experiences within the conservative pro-life movement in America. Unless you think she’s lying about what she experienced and the ideas that she was told then there’s no reason for what you said at all.

          • http://www.facebook.com/johnpaul.borberg JohnPaul Borberg

            Guess what? An idea still isn’t a ‘who’.

            It’s very hard to not be condescending when someone with the literacy of a preteen was telling me I was having trouble understanding a 6000 word article.

            You’ve repeatedly said you’ve read the article really carefully. Did you not once notice Libby Anne “criticize strongly” some “opinion, conviction, or principle” held by common people who identify as prolife? There’s one for pretty much every heading in the article. I’m surprised you missed all those ideas after your careful reading. But if you were expecting those ideas to be people that might explain why you didn’t recognize them.

          • Sara

            Criticism and attacking are not the same thing. Libby Anne is criticizes the pro-life movement in America (rightfully so, they are awful). Just because you feel attacked doesn’t mean she was attacking them. The things she said about them are true.

            And you say that I don’t understand anything.

          • Sara

            *criticizing

          • http://www.facebook.com/johnpaul.borberg JohnPaul Borberg

            “Criticism and attacking are not the same thing.”

            From dictionary.com, and posted above:
            “Attack: verb. 2. To criticize strongly or in a hostile manner.”

            Even if you weren’t aware of this common use of the word I specified explicitly that that is the sense in which I was using it. I know, it’s that reading thing again. What a pain.

            Also, I don’t feel attacked by Libby Anne because the ideas she was attacking aren’t ideas I feel particularly attached to.

            And it’s not that you don’t understand anything. You might very well understand something, you just keep failing at understanding basic English sentences. It’s funny enough to be amusing and trying to point the mistakes out in a way you’ll understand is an interesting challenge, but it makes a serious discussion somewhat impossible.

          • Sara

            If you don’t feel attached to the ideas that she was attacking then why are you doing here arguing with me about this stupid topic? You haven’t even brought up any good points you’ve just told me I’m stupid over and over. Putting aside this, “attacking ideas” thing, I fail to understand how the fact that Libby Anne was attacking ideas was a valid criticism of what she written. You brought up her attacking ideas as if you discredit what she’d written and you can’t even provide specific examples of how she was wrong. You just keep asserting that she was wrong without delving into why. You don’t live in America. You live in New Zealand, therefore you have zero experience with the pro-life movement there. Libby Anne however does. She grew up immersed in it and her post is an honest reflection of that. If you really aren’t attached to the pro-life movement then why spend so much time defending them and getting offended on their behalf?

          • http://www.facebook.com/johnpaul.borberg JohnPaul Borberg

            At what point was Libby Anne’s attacking ideas presented as a criticism of what she’d written?

            You initially claimed the author of the above article was ‘delusional’ for thinking criminalising abortion would stop it. When it was point out that the author explicitly rejected that idea you complained about people who aren’t involved with ProLife NZ who did believe it. When I asked what you wanted Prolife NZ to do about those people who aren’t them you said “stop make (sic) excuses for them?” and asserted Libby Anns post was filled with valid criticism of the pro-life movement.

            I made the point that while some of her criticism might be just, there were things that she said that were disputable and applicable to the prolife position in general, which is why Prolife NZ published the above response. You then argued that “she was talking about the LEADERS OF THE PRO-LIFE MOVEMENT IN AMERICA”. So I point out that she also “attacked ideas and motives shared by many in the movement”.

            So, I wasn’t criticising Libby Anne for attacking ideas. I was pointing out the fact she attacked ideas held by Prolife NZ, which was why Prolife NZ could respond by arguing against the ideas she presented. And I was criticising you for not noticing.

            So, once more you’re making things up instead of reading what’s actually there. If you don’t like people saying you’re stupid stop acting like you are. Come on, it’s just READING. It’s not hard.

          • Sara

            It’s also bizarre that you are acting like I’m stupid for saying “who.” It is clear that the ideas being supposedly attacked in her post are those of the pro-life movement, thus why I keep referring to who she is attacking when talking about ideas. The “ideas” come from the “who.” She isn’t attacking random ideas she is attacking the ideas of the pro-life movement in America thus why I seem to be referring to people and not ideas. And her attack on their ideas is not a problem considering those ideas are harmful, hypocritical and downright counter-productive. She is not attacking them or their ideas she is simply stating the truth. And it seems like you can’t handle that.

          • http://www.facebook.com/johnpaul.borberg JohnPaul Borberg

            You are stupid for asking ‘who’. You’re even more stupid for saying “Criticizing and attacking are not the same thing” when you’ve already been shown a dictionary definition that specifies that in this context they actually are.

            Anyway, if someone were to argue against an idea I have they are attacking my idea, not me (another reason I wouldn’t ‘feel attacked’ by Libby Anne). You may think that all disagreement is a personal attack, but that’s your problem, not mine. Yes, “‘ideas’ come from a ‘who’”, but I can vehemently oppose an idea (as defined above) without harbouring the least ill will against the person who holds it. So if I claim Libby Anne is attacking an idea, and you respond by asking ‘who is she attacking’, you are asking who an idea is, as I did not claim she was attacking a person.

            You are very confused. In one sentence you write “she isn’t attacking random ideas SHE IS ATTACKING the ideas of the pro-life movement in america”. A sentence later you write “SHE IS NOT ATTACKING them or their ideas she’s simply stating the truth”. She can’t be both attacking and not attacking their ideas, so here you’re quite spectacularly making even less sense than normal.

            And Libby Anne isn’t ‘simply stating the truth’, She is also rather confusedly being confused. She occasionally makes a good point, but that seems more by accident than any careful consideration on her part.

          • Sara

            Gosh, you really are a genius John Paul. I bow to your superior intellect. At the end of the day this is not that serious. Libby Anne made a great post bringing up a lot of truths about how out of touch with reality the pro-life movement is. You said that she spent a lot of time “attacking ideas” as if that was a fault of what she’d written. That’s simply not true.

          • http://www.facebook.com/johnpaul.borberg JohnPaul Borberg

            Don’t bow to my superior intellect, learn to read. That’d be much more worthwhile.

          • Sara

            Maybe YOU should learn how to take things in context. The pro-life movement in America is it’s own special animal and Libby Anne was specifically talking about despite your claims to the contrary. She has written extensively about pro-life efforts in the states to try that try to curtail women’s rights and claim to be standing up for the unborn. They are full of shit and if you don’t do things like that in New Zealand then she was not talking about you and there really was no need for this rude rebuttal to begin with.

            On top of that, not a single pro-life person in this post or anywhere else has answered any real questions. I asked the OP below what she thought should be done to women who have abortions if it is made illegal everywhere. No response. I asked for realistic solutions to try to stop people from having sex unless and until they were willing to have children. No response. I asked if she supported comprehensive sex ed and access to birth control to every woman regardless of age or status. No response. So unless someone wants to give me some real answers I’m going to conclude that all of you are the stupid ones here.

          • http://www.facebook.com/johnpaul.borberg JohnPaul Borberg

            Ok, here’s some context. Poor Sara started out accusing the op of holding a position they had explicitly rejected and has continued to obviously fail to understand fairly basic sentences in the ensuing discussion. I’ve got nothing against people being illiterate, or even stupid, but a semi-literate going around telling people they don’t understand stuff is particularly irritating. So what I’ve been writing against is Sara’s blatant failures at comprehension. Whether Libby Anne is writing against the prolife movement in general or specifically in America has very little to do with whether the op compared abortion to slavery, the meaning of the word ‘attack’, successive sentences contradicting each other, or any of the other failures of intelligence Sara has displayed.

            So, you think Libby Anne’s article is completely irrelevant to the prolife movement in New Zealand? You’re saying that the effects of legality on abortion rates, the claim that free contraception aids the prolife movement, the claim that not permitting the killing of a few preborn humans with failed contraceptives in order to stop a larger number of preborn humans being killed in abortions is somehow contradicting the prolife position, and the claim that opposing the deliberate taking of a human life while not also working to prevent natural deaths is inconsistent, all have nothing to do with the prolife movement in New Zealand?

            Ok. But obviously whoever wrote the article disagrees with you. If you think the rebuttals in the article above are somehow irrelevant to New Zealand you need to show how they are irrelevant. Just claiming they are irrelevant because they were written by an American seems a little… well… irrelevant.

            As for your other questions, I can’t speak for Prolife NZ. I disagree with them about a heap of stuff, some of which pertains to what you’re asking about. So I’ll just stick to defending the claims that Libby Anne’s and the above article are relevant to New Zealand and that Sara suffers from poor reading comprehension.

          • Sara

            Your personal attacks on me have no affect whatsoever. You’re coming off immature, though.

            I think the author of this post fails to consider that New Zealand has both a social
            support scheme of a kind which does not exist in the US, and very few of
            the anti-contraception, anti-sex education types that really do have a
            voice in the US. That changes things exponentially. And when it comes down to it, if anyone is really serious about helping the unborn then the solutions need to be grounded in reality and they have to give women their right to bodily autonomy. If the pro-life movement can’t do that, whether in New Zealand or in America then they are doomed to fail.

            So enough about how much of an idiot I am, that is not the point of this entire thing. The point is that the author and much of the pro-life movement clearly hasn’t thought this stuff through to the bitter end.

          • http://www.facebook.com/johnpaul.borberg JohnPaul Borberg

            I haven’t attacked you personally, unless you’re Sara posting under a different name. Though it is odd that 1) you think this has somehow been about you, and 2) you think you’ve been attacked.

            But ok, lets say the op “fails to consider That New Zealand has both a social support scheme of a kind…”. Which of the points addressed by the op in the article does that affect?

          • Sara

            Well, you keep calling me stupid. Name-calling is not becoming.

            The lack of health care in the US and the lack of support from the pro-life movement to support health care is the big issue here. Since poverty is a main reason for women considering abortion, pro-choicers feel that there would be less women considering abortion if they cold afford the child. Expanding the social safety net in America in particular will help women be able to care for themselves and their children. The pro-life movement does not support health care, in fact, they think socialism is Satan. The OP did not address this. She doesn’t seem familiar at all with the resistance and defiance to better health care in the US from supposed pro-lifers. She also doesn’t seem to be aware that women who DO give birth to their children are scorned at as “welfare queens” leaching off the system and they get little to no support from pro-life organizations and legislators.

            She also doesn’t seem to be aware that many pro-life candidates have made several comments lately defending rape and saying that women who get raped should see their possible pregnancies as gifts from God. Again, this is the antithesis of pro-life. These are things the OP seems to be ignorant of.Libby Anne’s post was a reaction to not only her upbringing in the pro-life movement in America but also the current efforts of the pro-life movement to actively do and say things that hurt women. Maybe New Zealand doesn’t have these things happening, and that’s why she didn’t address it. But she or you can’t say that Libby Anne’s post was bogus just because it was focused soley on what happens in America.

          • http://www.facebook.com/johnpaul.borberg JohnPaul Borberg

            Firstly I must apologise. When this page updated in real time your last two posts were attributed to ‘Miranda’, not Sara, which is why I spoke of you in the third person, and why I thought it odd you were personally insulted. So yes, sorry, I was calling you stupid, not so much to call you a name, but rather just to state a fact. And yes, this is about you. It is difficult to have a discussion in writing with someone who has trouble reading.

            But for what it’s worth, you seem to be objecting to the above article not based on what was written, but based on what you assume the author has overlooked. And what you think they’ve overlooked isn’t relevant to what they actually wrote about, but what you think they should have written about. That’s doing the looking and guessing thing again, as opposed to the reading thing you should be doing.

            Now, if the op is who I think they are they’re actually well aware of those accusation you brought up, though they probably wouldn’t agree that the situation is exactly as you say it is (actually, most people in New Zealand who are up to date with prolife news is actually quite aware of those issues). The reason they weren’t brought up is that they weren’t relevant to the points the op was actually trying to make.

            So yeah, I’d be happy to see you show how those points you raised actually relate to the points the op was trying to make. Until then you will continue to appear to have failed to understand what the op was even talking about.

          • Sara

            Jesus fucking Christ, I don’t misunderstand this post. This post is essentially full of the same pro-life rhetoric that I’ve heard time and time again with not a single shred of actually real-life solutions to abortion. Not a single one. The author has not said anything even remotely new or interesting and has literally added nothing to the supposed need to save millions of unborn babies. End of.

          • Sara

            Her refusal to reply to any concerns that I brought up shows that she doesn’t know what she’s talking about and hasn’t thought about them. CLEARLY she is not as aware and up to date as you claim she is.

          • http://www.facebook.com/johnpaul.borberg JohnPaul Borberg

            Yeah. That can be the only reason. It can’t possibly be that you’ve shown repeatedly that pretty much whatever they reply you’re not going to understand, and that you’ll just change the subject and rant about something vaguely connected if you get to the point you can’t deny your mistakes any longer.

            Seriously, how many times are you going to completely miss the point before you realise (or admit) you’re not very good at understanding things. How many times have you cocked up here:
            1) Thinking abortion had been compared to slavery. Twice. Even after it had been explained to you.
            2) Implying that the op thought “that if you get rid of legal abortion that you will stop it” after they’d explicitly rejected that claim.
            3) Saying that Libby’s article was “about the LEADERS OF THE PRO-LIFE MOVEMENT IN AMERICA”, as it that somehow excluded it from having content that was worth Prolife NZ responding to.
            4) Thinking attacking an idea meant attacking a person.
            5) Claiming no ideas were attacked by Libby Anne.
            6) Asking “Attacking ideas? What does that mean?”, when you actually meant to ask “what ideas were attacked?”.
            7) Saying Libby Anne attack some ideas, then saying she doesn’t attack any ideas in the following sentence.
            8) Saying the op can’t refute Libby Anne’s article because she’s American and things are so different in America the op couldn’t possibly understand, despite the op actually commenting on things that do apply here.
            9) Saying America’s situation is so different from NZ’s, then complaining we don’t apply what Libby Anne’s solution in NZ.
            10) Thinking I’d criticised Libby Anne for attacking ideas.
            11) Thinking the op should somehow be about ‘real life solutions to abortion’, as opposed to what it actually set out to do, which is point out Libby Anne’s mistakes.

            Really, how many more times do you need the drivel you spout thrown back at you before you realise you’ve got a problem?

          • Sara

            Do you seriously think the reason she’s not answering me is she thinks I can’t understand it? LOL.

            I know you think I’m the dumbest person to walk the face to walk the face of the planet ever ever ever (you’ve made that abundantly clear, bravo, do you want a cookie?) but really, she didn’t respond to anything user afried said either so I’m guess there’s more to her silence than just “Sara is stupid and doesn’t get anything.” She clearly is just as stupid as you claim I am. She really has nothing more to offer than this snark fest, which again, adds nothing and really didn’t even prove Libby Anne wrong. If she’s such a warrior for the unborn then what is she really doing about it. Apparently, nothing.

          • http://www.facebook.com/johnpaul.borberg JohnPaul Borberg

            You seem hung up on me calling you stupid. You should be more concerned with the fact you’ve written a hell of a lot that actually is stupid, regardless of what I write. There’s a rather long list of times you’ve shown you often fail to understand simple things, yet you still accuse people of stupidity, ignorance or malice when they disagree with you. You’re obviously bad at thinking, so when disagreeing with people you’d get a lot further if you stay open to the fact you’re quite likely wrong.

            It’s not my job to defend the author against your guesses as to why they don’t answer you or what they don’t know. And how successful they were at refuting Libby Anne is an interesting question, but exactly the thing you’ve shown you make lots of mistakes about when trying to think.

            So it is about you, actually. Your failures at comprehension (rather than my pointing them out) are actually of central importance to your discussion of this topic as you’re not going to make any sense whatsoever until that problem has been addressed.

            And remember, it’s not about me pointing out your mistakes, it’s about the fact you actually make them.

          • Sara

            Who cares if I’ve made mistakes, I’ve also brought up a lot of valid points that nobody here as answers to. The pro-lifers continue to be predictable.

            That said, I’m done with this now. Maybe I’ll go get pregnant and have an abortion (because if there is one thing I’ve learned from this author it’s that killing babies = freedom!!!!!!). It would probably be a lot more enjoyable than this.

          • http://www.facebook.com/johnpaul.borberg JohnPaul Borberg

            It’s obvious you don’t care that you’re mistaken. I only care about it when you’re saying what other people should think and do where I can notice.

            Fortunately we can end with an agreement: I’m be more than happy for you to not breed, the less people like you around the better. Have fun killing your babies.

          • Sara

            Oooh, sick burn!

            Bye, John Paul. Hope we never meet again.

          • http://www.facebook.com/johnpaul.borberg JohnPaul Borberg

            The reason the article doesn’t provide any ‘real life solutions to abortion’ is that it quite clearly doesn’t set out to. The author explicitly states in the third paragraph that their intention is to show some of the claims Libby makes are wrong, not prove that something else is right.

            So yeah, it seems you did misunderstand it after all. And you still rant on. Seriously, swearing doesn’t make you make any more sense.

          • Sara

            But the author, in proving that Libby Anne was wrong, should be able to come up with better solutions than Libby Anne, right? She clearly thinks abortion is murdered, and yet all she can do is snark on Libby Anne. That is what I am criticizing her for. For being snarky and apparently proving Libby Anne wrong (which she didn’t even remotely do) and leaving us with a bunch of tired pro-life rhetoric. Mind-blowing.

          • http://www.facebook.com/johnpaul.borberg JohnPaul Borberg

            If Libby Anne tells someone they should think something different from what they do, it is a sufficient defense if the person Libby Anne thinks should change says why they disagree without going into all the consequences of the disagreement.

            If the prolife person reiterates the prolife position while disagreeing with her, it just shows that Libby Anne’s idea isn’t reconcilable with the prolife position.

            Yes, the op was unnecessarily snarky, and you’re welcome to disagree with what they argued, but you’ve not done anything to dispute anything they actually said. All you’ve done is complain they didn’t talk about something that’s actually irrelevant to the content of their post.

          • Sara

            My “I’d also recommend” comment was not irrelevant. I was making you aware that Libby Anne had written more about this subject to address some questions and concerns that people were bringing up. The idea that she was talking about the pro-life movement as a whole vs. the leaders and major orgs in America was one of those concerns. She clarified exactly what she meant in case people were confused. But again, the only reason you could be confused, imo, is if you skimmed. She did not say “every pro-life person ever thinks this way.”

          • http://www.facebook.com/johnpaul.borberg JohnPaul Borberg

            Your “I’d also recommend” comment failed to address any points raised in the comment it purported to be a reply to, hence was irrelevant.

          • Sara

            Reading her posts would have addressed everything you mentioned.

          • http://www.facebook.com/johnpaul.borberg JohnPaul Borberg

            Maybe. If she means what you say she means (and you’ve exhibited an knack for misunderstanding).

            Regardless, if you want to make a point, make it yourself. Maybe post a link as a reference, but don’t expect me to trawl through thousands of someone else words for a single point you’re too lazy to make yourself.

            If you disagree with me, I invite you to read a few books on rhetoric.

          • Sara

            The only reason I’m “exhibiting a knack for misunderstanding” is because other people are misunderstand the point I am making. So really, this is all a big misunderstanding.

          • http://www.facebook.com/johnpaul.borberg JohnPaul Borberg

            Um, not. Showing an unacceptable consequence follows from a principle is a fairly common means of showing the falsity of the principle. The words you used mightn’t have been what you meant, but the response was sound (and not hard to follow. And common as muck).

            If you don’t get it, I really do suggest you read up on both rhetoric and critical thinking.

          • Sara

            There really wasn’t anything wrong with my argument. The OP just made a
            huge leap to slavery and it caught me off guard because that wasn’t in
            my head at all. I understand the point being made now, but I still don’t fully agree with it. Banning things full-stop and then saying “that’s that!” is not a good idea. It’s short-sighted. That’s what I was saying.

          • http://www.facebook.com/johnpaul.borberg JohnPaul Borberg

            Right, so you accept sometimes banning things makes the world a better place. That (and that alone) was the false point the slavery comment was refuting.

          • Sara

            Banning sometimes can make the world better but not when banning is the only thing you intend to do. And the pro-life movement IN AMERICA seems intent on only doing that.

          • Sara

            And just so we’re clear ONCE AGAIN I know what the word attack means. You misunderstood me.

    • Radical Feminist

      Sara,

      You do realize that this same argument also justifies infanticide, adult homicide, slavery, rape, war, or any other act that human beings have been engaging in for a long time, right?

      I really can’t get my head around your suggestion that it is far better to kill some women, in order to make the process of killing less risky for other women.

      That’s not an ethical position, it’s simply nonsensical.

      And if we were to take your suggestion seriously that “you don’t make things perfect by banning things. That’s lazy”, then I guess that we should have NEVER banned slavery, and we should have never legally stopped people from preventing woman from voting, and we should have never outlawed racial segregation, right?

      After all, according to you, we live in an imperfect world and you don’t make things better by being lazy (???) and banning certain unethical acts.

      • Sara

        Hi? Slavery is not banned in all parts of the world. And comparing a woman’s right to choose to abortion is wildly offensive. Just fyi.

        And again, what are your realistic solutions?

        • Sara

          “comparing a woman’s right to choose to abortion”

          That should say slavery not abortion.

          • afried

            I always find it incredibly ironic when proponents of forced breeding bring up slavery. Don’t you see that slavery is what you advocating for, not against here? Compelling a woman to continue a pregnancy against her will is forced breeding indeed and what is it if not slavery.

          • Sara

            Thanks, afried, for understanding what I was saying. I was starting to feel like I was taking crazy pills.

        • http://www.facebook.com/johnpaul.borberg JohnPaul Borberg

          Sara, no one compared abortion to slavery. Your principle “you don’t make things perfect by banning things. That’s lazy” was applied to slavery, and the fact you got offended shows your principle doesn’t hold.

          • Sara

            I guess I misunderstood.

            Even so, people are still used as slaves in this world and there are still issues of racism in America even though slavery was abolished there. So yeah, getting rid of slavery didn’t make a perfect world and banning abortion won’t make it perfect either.

          • http://www.facebook.com/johnpaul.borberg JohnPaul Borberg

            No one said getting rid of slavery made the world perfect.

            You were to first to bring up perfection. From the context you seemed to mean ‘better’ when you said ‘perfect’. No one has claimed legislation prefects anything. If you are talking about literal perfection, why have you brought it up?

            If you meant ‘better’, you’re arguing that banning slavery is not a good thing. It’s a fair position if you want to argue for it, but is that really what you mean?

          • Sara

            Obviously I believe that ending slavery was a good thing, but it was good because it kept independent human beings from being kept as someone else’s property. This is in no way comparable to abortion because zygotes/embryos/fetuses are not independent beings, they are in fact dependent on the woman they are living inside. If you ban abortion, you take away a woman’s right to bodily autonomy. And that is not okay. Afried explained it below.

          • http://www.facebook.com/johnpaul.borberg JohnPaul Borberg

            I thought you’d agreed that no one was comparing abortion to slavery.

          • Sara

            Then why even bring it up?

          • http://www.facebook.com/johnpaul.borberg JohnPaul Borberg

            Oh god, we’ve been over this. I’ll cut and past from above:

            “Sara, no one compared abortion to slavery. Your principle “you don’t make things perfect by banning things. That’s lazy” was applied to slavery, and the fact you got offended shows your principle doesn’t hold.”

            You said something that was either stupid or irrelevant (in case the latter doesn’t imply the former) and the case of slavery was used illustrate you fallacy.

            It’s not that hard.

          • Sara

            But my original comment had nothing to do with slavery. I was making a point that many who are pro-life point to the idea that overturning legislation will fix things. They’re against social safety nets, birth control and all other things that will actually decrease abortion because they think legislation is the key. My whole point was that it isn’t and then whatserface brought up slavery and a bunch of other things. It made no sense to bring it up in relation to my point anyway.

          • http://www.facebook.com/johnpaul.borberg JohnPaul Borberg

            Your original comment had nothing to do with slavery. Very good, you understood something someone wrote, even if it was just you. However, you then stated a principle that, when applied to slavery, was so abhorrent to you you declined to defined the principle and just become offended instead, indicating that your original principle might have been flawed.

          • Sara

            It should never have been applied to slavery. You cannot apply the principles of abortion to slavery. Legal abortion is necessary until we can decrease the number of abortions enough through other means (ie. better sex ed, better health care, ending domestic violence and rape, ending poverty, etc.). Slavery should never have been legal in the first place. It served no purpose other than to dehumanize people. Abortion is legal so women have a right to their own autonomy.

          • http://www.facebook.com/johnpaul.borberg JohnPaul Borberg

            “You don’t make things perfect by banning things. That’s lazy” doesn’t apply to slavery.

          • Sara

            I was talking more along the lines of something like prohibition when I wrote that. And then slavery got brought into the mix.

          • http://www.facebook.com/johnpaul.borberg JohnPaul Borberg

            Right, but things (in general) can be made better by banning some things? Like slavery.

          • Sara

            But that’s not all you need to do. Simply banning slavery doesn’t work. You have to keep working to overcome racism and other ways that people are disenfranchised and dehumanized. And for the most part, people are for that. But the pro-life movement, especially in America, is against all the other things that would decrease abortion. They want to ban it and then stop there. Do you not see a problem with that?

          • http://www.facebook.com/johnpaul.borberg JohnPaul Borberg

            But you do agree that things (in general) can be made better by banning some things? Like slavery.

            Common, it’s either an improvement or it’s not.

          • Sara

            I would say that some things can be made better by banning, and others not so much. I mean, when it comes to drugs and alcohol, banning them doesn’t work because people will find ways around the system. People will also find ways around the system and still have abortions of they are not legal too. But obviously, bigger issues like slavery are different. I do agree that banning slavery makes things better, but like I said, it cannot stop there. Banning something and then saying “looks like our work is done!” IS lazy.

          • http://profile.yahoo.com/7MS34BR4QT4KMWLYPD3KUR5QVA Sev

            Simplistic logic.
            If some things being banned makes things better (in general) then that applies to anything I pick…
            hmmm… let’s go with Cheetos! Ban Cheetos! The world will be so much better.

  • Sara

    I also would kind of like to know what you think should be done with women who have abortions? Let’s say that abortion is made illegal, should women who continue to obtain them be locked up for life in prison as murderers? Or do they deserve some compassion? After all, the vast majority of women who have abortions aren’t just doing it because they are irresponsible sluts who think that killing babies = freedom. Many women obtain abortions because they are poor (black women who live below the poverty line are more likely to obtain abortion) and can’t afford to raise children, or because they are in domestic abuse situations. There are also a high number of women who are married and already have children that get abortions. And what’s to be done with the very real fact that people will continue to have sex? I know it’s an idealistic fantasy that many conservatives have that everyone should just wait for marriage to have sex and then only have sex if they are open to the idea of having children, but lets be honest with ourselves, that is not how the world works. And abstinence-only sex education programs have shown to not work. In, fact States that have embraced these programs have higher rates of teen pregnancies than those that don’t. So what do you propose? How, in all honesty, do you police people’s sex lives so that they are only doing it if they want children? This is something that I have yet to hear a realistic answer to from any pro-lifer ever.

    • Radical Feminist

      Sara,

      A couple of points:

      1. You seem to have forgotten the rather glaring issue of the ethical question that lies at the heart of the abortion issue.

      If it can be shown that abortion is an act of homicide against an innocent human being, then I’m not sure how poverty, or ‘I just wanted sex, but not one of those human being things that naturally and regularly results from sex’ could ever be used as a justification for such an act.

      The exact same arguments you are making here can also be used to support legalized infanticide, or dependent children of any age for that matter.

      2. So what if lots of people engage in an unethical act because its convenient, or provides a good outcome?

      Plenty of people also thought that it was totally unrealistic to end slavery in Britain and the US, claiming that it would destroy the economy, and that it was an age-old practice, etc, etc.

      Thankfully the abolitionists never stopped fighting slavery just because they were told that slavery produced good outcomes, and that its abolition would lead to economic ruin.

      3. If you read my post above, you will actually see that there are a couple of points that are pertinent to your claims that states with liberal sex education have lower rates of teen pregnancy (like the point that: “Liberal California, for instance, has a higher teen pregnancy rate than socially conservative Alabama; the Californian teenage birth rate is only lower because the Californian abortion rate is more than twice as high”)

      4. Your reasoning here (which is typical for the pro-choice position) is terribly circular, and rather irresponsible and shortsighted:

      ‘We should let people keep aborting there babies because lots of people are aborting their babies’

      and:

      ‘People are irresponsible and make bad choices, and end up creating new human beings that aren’t convenient, so we should provide them with a mechanism that helps them to keep being irresponsible and doesn’t do anything to break the cycle of bad decision-making patterns’.

      • Sara

        I disagree that abortion is homicide. The law doesn’t agree with that either. Zygotes and born humans are not the same.

        I still don’t know what your SOLUTIONS are, though? You say that we shouldn’t let people do this and we shouldn’t let people do that. But what is to be done with people who do? Do you think women who have abortions should be tried for murder? Should they go to jail? And what about the men who got them pregnant? Like, honestly, how do you REALISTICALLY propose to stop people from having sex and risking the possibility of becoming pregnant? Do you support sex education? Do you support the availability of birth control? These are all things that the pro-choice movement is advocating to bring down abortion rates. Simply telling people to not have sex doesn’t work. If it did, this wouldn’t be an issue.

      • Sara

        http://www.abcactionnews.com/dpp/news/health/study-free-birth-control-reducing-teen-pregnancies-abortions

        Here is an ABC News article about birth control and teen pregnancies in America.

  • Sara

    I also don’t like how you accuse Libbey Anne of rebelling against her upbringing. You make her sound like a teenager instead of a woman who was hurt badly by a patriarchal religious cult and obviously has a lot of pain from it. Nice to know you have such compassion for fellow human beings who have been hurt and scarred by their harmful upbringings. How very pro-life of you.

    • Merindah

      the author doesn’t “accuse” Libby of rebelling, but is stating a fact. Anyone can realise that Libby’s ability to logically de-construct the pro-life p.o.v. is gravely impaired by her emotional inability to separate pro-life from the evangelical paradigm in which she received it. Obviously that difficulty is understandable, but its not an excuse in rational discourse. The fact is, pro-life does not equal evangelical or religious, and by equivocating in such a way, Libby simply introduces red-herrings and strawmen. Basically, she fails the objectivity test.

      • Sara

        The concept of “pro-life” has been adopted and co-opted by Evangelical and conservative Catholic Christians. This is not Libby Anne not being able to separate her experience from reality, this IS reality.

    • Radical Feminist

      Sara,

      Thanks for joining the discussion.

      Basically I think you are trying to have your cake and eat it too.

      It was Libby Anne, NOT me, who chose to write a 6000+ word plea to pro-lifers to come out of the pro-life movement, and to frame her plea around HER personal experiences and upbringing.

      I am not plucking wild accusations out of thin air here, I am simply inferring what is patently obvious from Libby Anne’s very own words – that she has a great angst about her former life and upbringing.

      You talk about Libby Anne being “hurt badly”, but I don’t see a lot of evidence of that in her post, instead I see someone who is more annoyed, than hurt, about her former involvement in the pro-life movement, religious upbringing, etc, and who has decided to vent her annoyance via the blogosphere.

      That’s all fine and dandy, up until the point at which your desire to cast off your former life leads you to start proposing all sorts of logical fallacies and questionable claims about the pro-life movement, ethics, etc.

      Experiencing a bad upbringing isn’t a ‘get out of jail free’ card that allows one to make all sorts of wild accusations and claims without ever being challenged, or having your motivations questioned, especially when those motivations are one of the central themes of your criticisms against another group.

      • Sara

        You have clearly only read this one post by Libby Anne. I’ve been reading her blog for months and it’s clear that the Christian Patriarchy movement that she grew up in had longterm affects on her. It affected the way she saw herself, her body, and it affected her relationship with her husband. And she wasn’t making wild accusations of the pro-life movement. She was giving an honest account of her experiences with it. And those experiences are not just hers. Many other people who were exposed to the lies and rhetoric of the pro-life movement now realize that that’s exactly all it was: lies and rhetoric.

  • afried

    No, it’s you who’s illogical. Libby says: “I also came to realize that the focus on personhood ignores the fact that a zygote, embryo, or fetus is growing inside of another person’s body. For a variety of reasons, I see birth as the key dividing line”

    You say: “How does growing inside another person’s body change the fact of whether a fetus is a person or not? Put simply; it doesn’t.”

    And you are proving her point right here. Personhood of the fetus is irrelevant precisely because it’s growing inside another person’s body. Nobody’s personhood entitles them to live inside and use another person’s body as a walking life support system. And no, saving a life isn’t enough of a reason. It’s against the law to use a dead person’s organs without theirs’ or their relatives’ consent to save a life. Why is it ok to use a living person’s body as in using her blood for sustenance, her kidneys for elimination, her lungs for oxygen? Potentially harming or even killing her in the process?

    • Miranda

      Afried, much of your reasoning above has been borrowed from Judith Jarvis Thompson’s Violinist though experiment. There are a number of logical problems with the thought experiment (and your claims above) that are addressed in this video on the prolife nz youtube page.

      http://youtu.be/MAkkuBW7s80

      I would be interested to hear your reply to the points made in the video?

      • Sara

        A woman ALWAYS has a right to her own autonomy. Always. A zygote does not trump a flesh and blood woman.

        • Michael

          Interesting to see that you limit it to zygotes? Sara are you happy to remove the right to choose for women who is carrying an entity inside the womb that has passed the zygote stage and is now a ‘flesh and blood’ embryo or fetus (the stage that the vast majority of abortions are performed at)? Isn’t that restricting a woman’s right to her own autonomy?

          • Sara

            You people are dumber than John Paul claims I am.

            First of all, most women who get abortions get them in the first trimester. Very few women get abortions later in the pregnancy unless there is a legit medical reason to do so, such as fetal deformities or the mother’s life is in danger.

            Second, no we shouldn’t limit women’s reproductive writes AT ALL because no matter the situation women have a right to their own autonomy. I am never going to agree with you forced-birtherss that a zygote, embryo or fetus trumps the woman carrying it.

          • Michael

            Sara you seem to be very good at screaming your extremist views on an absoute right to abortion and heaping insults at anyone who disagrees with you, but not that adept at engaging with people’s arguments and backing up your extremist views with a case that would ever encourage anyone to want to adopt anything close to your world view.

            My point was that you keep on exclaiming the slogan “A zygote does not trump a flesh and blood women”, when a vast majority of abortions occur when the entity inside the womb has passed the zygote stage and is now a embryo or fetus.

            If you think the critique of your slogan above is inaccurate, please come back with facts to show you are correct rather than another barrage of ad hominem attacks and slogans.

          • Sara

            Actually, most abortions are performed in the zygote or embryo stage, not the fetus stage. That is where you are wrong. Most women who want abortions seek them as early as they can in the pregnancy, before it gets to the fetal stage.

          • http://www.facebook.com/johnpaul.borberg JohnPaul Borberg

            Abortions are preformed on zygotes?

            A human is a zygote from conception until about four days. If there is a artificially induced failure to implant, what is expelled from the woman’s body is a blastocyst, not a zygote.

          • Sara

            That doesn’t change the fact that “most abortions are performed on fetuses” is false. Most abortions are not performed on fetuses. They are performed in the pre-fetal development phases over 90% of the time.

          • http://www.facebook.com/johnpaul.borberg JohnPaul Borberg

            Sara, no one said “most abortions are performed on fetuses”.

            Michael said (twice) “a vast majority of abortions occur when the entity inside the womb has passed the zygote stage and is now a EMBRYO or fetus”.

            100% of abortions after the mother is aware they are pregnant are carried out at the embryo stage or later (i.e: on fetuses).

            So, Michael’s statement about embryos and fetuses was correct.

            So, not only was your statement about zygotes false, you did your looking and guessing instead of reading thing again.

            Maybe you should care about being wrong. It might make you less wrong.

          • Sara

            Okay, I just wanted to make it clear that he knew most abortions were not performed on fetuses because it seems to be a common misconception amongst pro-lifers that women are having late term abortions left and right. If that is not what he meant then I apologize. But like I said, there is a lot of misinformation that pro-lifers are prone too. Fetuses rarely ever get aborted.

          • http://www.facebook.com/johnpaul.borberg JohnPaul Borberg

            You made a claim that was false and failed to read what Michael had clearly written, twice.

          • Sara

            Or maybe I’m so used to pro-lifers not understanding that most women don’t actually abort fetuses most of the time that I assumed he was one of them. You are really obsessed with me at this point. I thought we parted ways.

          • http://www.facebook.com/johnpaul.borberg JohnPaul Borberg

            You made a claim that was false and failed to read what Michael had clearly written, twice. You also tend to respond to what you guess, rather than what you know.

          • Sara

            Reply to this.

          • http://www.facebook.com/johnpaul.borberg JohnPaul Borberg

            Happy to oblige.

          • Sara

            One thing that I am sure of is that if women do not have a right to their own autonomy and reproductive choices bad things happen.

            Take a look at this article about this woman in Ireland where abortion is illegal:

            http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2012/1114/1224326575203.html

            I’d like to really get some thoughts from the OP (or any pro-lifer, really) about things like this

          • Sara
          • Sarah D

            Sara, the tragic loss of Savita Hallappanavar’s life was not caused by Ireland’s ban on abortion – Irish doctors are always obliged to intervene to save the life of a mother – even if that risks the life of her baby.

            In fact, the Irish Medical Council are very clear in this regard that their guidelines state that doctors will be struck off if they don’t intervene to save the life of a mother. The result of the investigation into Ms Halappanavar’s death will make the facts known, and journalists have been rushing to pre-empt those investigations when they are not in full possession of the facts.

            According to the article you posted, it seems that the administration of antibiotics may not have started until the Tuesday following Savita Halappanavar’s first presenting at the hospital. The delay may have contributed to the septicaemia which tragically led to her death, but only the result of an investigation will reveal the full facts.

            Experts commenting on the case have made it clear that in such cases the main concentration of the medical team treating any woman in this situations would be on maintaining her health. Interventions to deal with the cause of the illness were not considered a therapeutic termination of pregnancy, another Dublin-based practitioner told the newspaper.

            Ireland’s ban on abortion does not pose a threat to women’s lives, according to the Obstetricians and Gynaecologists who care for Irish women every day. In fact, without abortion, Ireland is one of the safest places in the world for a mother to have a baby, according to the United Nations.

          • http://www.facebook.com/johnpaul.borberg JohnPaul Borberg

            Also, if one woman dies ‘because’ she is denied an abortion in a country where abortion is illegal means legal abortion saves lives, does another woman dying because of injuries sustained during a legal abortion mean legal abortion also kills women?

            Or does it just show the futility of building ethical cases form isolated incidents?

            http://articles.nydailynews.com/2010-01-27/news/29436952_1_clinic-abortion-detectives

          • http://www.facebook.com/johnpaul.borberg JohnPaul Borberg

            So ‘no’ then.

          • Sara

            I’m more interested in discussing issues that are relevant to the topic. And interestingly enough, the OP said in this post that Ireland was one of the safest places for women. So much for that theory.

            Nice to know that you’re much more concerned with discussing what you think my shortcomings are, than how the pro-life establishment once again has proved that it is bad for women.

          • http://www.facebook.com/johnpaul.borberg JohnPaul Borberg

            You objected to a point made by Miranda with a comment about the relative worth of women to zygotes that was irrelevant. When Michael called you on it you insisted you were right with a statement about zygotes being aborted that wasn’t true. When I called you on that you justified your comment by misquoting Michael. When I called you on THAT you said you replied the way you did because you GUESSED he was mistaken (despite evidence to the contrary), as if that justified you misquoted him and made false claims. When I called you on THAT you change the subject.

            Do you see a pattern? Every time you’ve come up against something you don’t like you lie, get confused or change the subject. Those ‘shortcomings’ make discussion impossible, so yeah, we really have to address them first.

          • Sara

            I admit that I misunderstood some things above but why does that make everything else I say invalid? What does that have to do with the case of Savita Halappanavar dying because pro-lifers in Ireland murdered her? If you don’t like the things I say then don’t reply to me. You seem intent on following me around and it’s getting weird. Maybe your problem is that you’re too obsessive and can’t let things go. I’m done engaging with you now.

            If you or someone on the pro-life side wants to take a stab at addressing anything in the articles I posted then have at it.

          • http://www.facebook.com/johnpaul.borberg JohnPaul Borberg

            Good.

          • Sara

            I like how you responded with “Good” and hour ago and then apparently just came back and edited to lecture me again. You really are obsessed.

          • http://www.facebook.com/johnpaul.borberg JohnPaul Borberg

            I responded ‘good’ as soon as you posted, then immediately wrote a slightly longer reply. I have a distaste for inadequate responses.

          • Sara

            That doesnt change the fact that you could have just let the topic go, which it initially seemed like you were going to do but then scurried back to edit it because you just haaaaad to keep this thing going. You have issues.

      • afried

        You are right, it was Thompson who came up with this argument way back when, I’m not claiming the authorship but it makes the most sense to me. I watched the video and as near as I can tell, the speaker agrees that the fetus doesn’t have the right to occupy the womb. But the only conclusion he makes is that it doesn’t follow that we can do whatever we want with the fetus. I agree, we can not. The woman in question, however, can do one thing and one thing only – remove it from inside her own body if she doesn’t want it to be there.

        As for logical problems, no, not really. Consensual vs. non-consensual? By definition, an unwanted pregnancy isn’t consensual because I didn’t consent to become pregnant. Stranger vs bond – that’s in the eye of the beholder, like any relationship and that, again, hinges on your consent. An invited friend is a cherished guest, someone who broke into your house against your will is an intruder. An unwanted pregnancy might feel like an invasion of the worst sort.

        Direct vs indirect cause of death – that’s a popular argument, but I don’t see it as applicable either. The speaker says that if you don’t volunteer your organ for a sick person, that sick person would die of their sickness. A fetus removed from inside my body would die because it’s non-viable. How is it different?

        So no, I still think that a pregnancy has to be a voluntary condition. Nobody should have the power to force it upon an unwilling woman.

        • Sarah

          Hi Alfried, thanks for your comments above.

          So if we follow this line of thinking, if the violinist can be moved from the life support provided by the human donor to an artificial life support system, therefore freeing the donor from their forced obligations, would the human donor have a right to choose to kill the violinist rather than allow for the violinist to be connected to the artificial life support system?

          • afried

            No, of course not. But we don’t have artificial life support systems to replace a womb. If we did the conversation would’ve been entirely different. I don’t think a woman has a right to kill a child, the way anti-choicers put it (sorry, people who’d rather see a pregnant woman die than have an abortion can’t be called pro-life.) She does have a right to not allow her body to be used to build a child just because someone else thinks it’s the right thing to do.

            And before you start saying that the child already exists – if that was the case, what would be the process of pregnancy for? An embryo exists but leave it in a petri dish and see if it becomes a child. Carrying a child is not the same as carrying a cellphone in your purse.

          • Miranda

            Ok so in that case, if the fetus can be removed from the womb and connected to a life support system/taken care of by an intensive care team (lets say for arguments sake this is after 28 weeks gestation), after this point in pregnancy, does the women have the right to choose to have an operating surgeon directly kill and remove that fetus from the womb, rather than have it delivered and connected to a life support system?

          • afried

            28 weeks is post viability. Very few abortions are done at that stage, usually for medical reasons, and should be governed by medical considerations. A woman with severe pre-eclampsia, say, has a very high risk of having a stroke or bleeding out if you make her go through the labor or have a caesarian performed on her so the fetus has to be taken out whichever way is the safest for her. These decisions, like any difficult and often emergency medical decisions, are ideally made on a case by case basis by those who are qualified to make them. Laws should have nothing to do with it.

          • Miranda

            So if we leave abortions for medical reasons aside for now, and assume the termination is being sought for social reasons after 28 weeks (yes this is a small proportion of all terminations, but it does happen), does the women have the right to choose to have an operating surgeon directly kill and remove that fetus from the womb, rather than have it delivered and connected to a life support system?

    • http://profile.yahoo.com/7MS34BR4QT4KMWLYPD3KUR5QVA Sev

      Actually neither of them is being “illogical”.
      They’re both falling into the trap of thinking that because you hold a position there must be some kind of irrefutable logic behind it. There isn’t. On either case.
      It all falls on how you define the word “person” or “human”.
      If you define “person” to include zygote, embryo, fetus then all the following conclusions stemming from that are logical.
      If you define “person” as having certain characteristics (a brain, self sufficient life, inside/outside, etc.) then all the conclusions stemming from that are similarly logical.
      But the basic definition is not “logical” or “irrefutable” in any way.
      My position here would be that here we find a “limit” to the traditional definition of “person”.
      As genetic technology progresses we will encounter other such limits and they will probably inspire similar battles.
      I would just say to everyone that reads this that they should remember that it all comes down to arbitrary definitions.
      Once that has been understood you can then start to dig further and ask yourself: “Why am I picking this definition over this other one?”
      The answer may be unexpected.

  • afried

    Also, this statement: “People are irresponsible and make bad choices, and end up creating new
    human beings that aren’t convenient, so we should provide them with a
    mechanism that helps them to keep being irresponsible and doesn’t do
    anything to break the cycle of bad decision-making patterns”.

    So a married woman having sex with her husband is making a bad choice? A large number of women getting abortions are married and already have children. What’s their bad decision-making patterns? What makes them irresponsible? Not wanting to have more children than they have resources to raise and still wanting to make love to their life partners?

    And do you really believe that being inconvenienced causes women to have abortions? Hundreds of thousands of women around the world have abortions every year regardless of whether it’s legal or not and risk their health and lives in the process where it’s not legal. What kind of inconvenience would make you risk your life?

  • JivinJ

    After commenting on Libby Anne’s post and interacting with her, I’m convinced she’s writing a fictional account. To me she comes across as a sheltered pro-choicer attempting to act like she was really involved in the pro-life movement but much of what she says indicates she wasn’t. She knew nothing about 2nd trimester abortions (she ignorantly thought they were only allowed in a very small set of circumstances – that’s the type of things only very sheltered pro-choicers believe) and it makes no sense that a SFL president would change her worldview over lunch based on one “study” by pro-abortion groups without ever bringing up her thoughts to her friends and family. And as RF points out, she uses a large number of logical fallacies which are prevalent in the pro-choice movement but are easily pointed out and refuted by people who are involved in the prolife movement.

    • afried

      Libby Anne is young and is honestly trying to think her way through ideas that are morally important to her. Good for her! What’s fictional about it? As for refuting logical fallacies, you aren’t doing a good job of it by simply repeating the ones that are prevalent on your side of the argument.

    • Brian

      Yeah, she’s only spent years documenting her upbringing, early family life, awakening, and current life to try to trick you with her clever lie about her personal views on abortion.

  • Mary
  • Andrea
    • http://www.facebook.com/johnpaul.borberg JohnPaul Borberg

      See Sarah D’s response above.

      Also note: abortionists also killed a woman.

      http://articles.nydailynews.com/2010-01-27/news/29436952_1_clinic-abortion-detectives

      • Andrea

        Women die of illegal botched abortions far more than they do from safe, legal ones, JohnPaul. In fact, if you read the article posted below by Mary it states that in the pre-Roe vs. Wade days the number one cause of pregnant women was botched abortions. There are also several more cases out there like this one in Ireland where doctor”s refused a woman an abortion that could have saved her life.

        • Andrea

          *the number one cause of death for pregnant women, rather

        • http://www.facebook.com/johnpaul.borberg JohnPaul Borberg

          Sorry, with that link and comment it seemed you were trying to imply that not preforming an abortion caused a woman to die, and that was murder. I was pointing out preforming a legal abortion also caused a woman to die. It’s not clear why you consider that means the prolife movement are murders but the prochoice movement aren’t.

          But now you point out women also die during illegal abortions. Yes. I’m glad you noticed. This tells us that women die from both legal AND illegal abortions.

          Now, according to the article you linked to the doctors refused to induce labour, which isn’t what an abortion is. I’ve got no idea why the doctors chose the course of action they did, and why other steps weren’t taken (such as administering antibiotics, which, in New Zealand at least, is standard practice if there’s a ruptured membrane for more that 24 hours). Neither does anyone else because the fact’s still aren’t known. So, pending the results of the ongoing investigation we don’t know if an abortion was the only way to have save that woman’s life.

          But as you pointed out, women die from both legal and illegal abortions. This making abortion out to be a bad thing.

          • Andrea

            Well, I will agree with you inasmuch as I think that abortion isn’t exactly a good thing. I do think it’s a necessary thing, though, until we can find a fool-proof way end unwanted pregnancies. It’s a complicated issue because there are many factors a play that lead women to have abortions and abortions can and have improved and saved women’s lives exponentially. But things can go wrong. I wish we lived in a world where abortion wasn’t necessary but we do, unfortunately.

            In the case of Savita, the general consensus seems to be that the Catholic doctors refused to terminate her pregnancy even after being asked repeatedly by both Savita and her husband to do it because the fetus still had a heartbeat. And the only reason given to her was “Ireland is a Catholic country.” Even Savitas parents are blaming Ireland’s anti-abortion laws her her death. But who knows, time will tell. I still think Ireland’s abortion laws need to be re-examined and several pro-choice protests are happening as we speak.